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tascabe
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 12:37:58 pm »

Might want to figure something to secure the propane canister as well - to avoid damaging the fill nozzle.
Other than that - great work!
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 01:34:40 pm »

Looks really good Coop! 

You could use a long coily spring like a throttle return spring fastened the same way your cable is to secure the canister. 

Metal shelf would take no time at all to do, just break the edges with a vise and hammer then screw it in.  Finish the edges with some rubber edging and you'd be all set. 

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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 01:42:11 pm »

Had given several thoughts to the canister:

If I'm playing with thin sheet metal, I could bend a 3 sided "container" to hold the canister.  The top wall would hold the footballs, the bottom wall would sit above the 40mm's, perhaps to keep them from jostling around even more, and bend up the "back/bottom" to retain the canister in place, perhaps with a slot to accomodate the gas fill adapter.

I had thought about drilling a hole into the side of the crate to accommodate the nozzle.  The footballs do a really good job of holding the canister still, fortunately.  Then it'd just be a matter of sliding the canister, nozzle first, into the side wall, where the nozzle would fit comfortably in it's protective slot.

The nozzle is removable.  It does come off, sometimes when I don't want it too.  I could take a piece of scrap wood, drill press a hole in it, wide and deep enough to accommodate the detached nozzle, shallow enough so gloved fingers can remove the nozzle, and wide enough to attach to the side of the crate.  That way, with the crate lid closed, the nozzle won't bounce around freely (being held inside this block of wood, and the crate door preventing it from falling out, nor would it be attached to the can, preventing the risk of accidentally venting propane.

Edit: Idea 4, and could potentially be done this evening, I have 4 leather straps from the 2 packs and frames I bought, the one frame was royally bent, and will need work before it becomes the PMN-2 Mine Carrying crate.  But the M39 rucks have straps on the bottom that just slip out of a leather retention loop.  In theory I could just create a simple leather cross, with the ends secured inside the crate, and the buckles available to hold the can still.
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2013, 06:57:52 pm »

You could also try something similar to the retention system in the 1PN34 transit box.

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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 01:05:58 pm »

Looks like I'll be going with a metal shelf, based on a very helpful conversation with Swayze I had earlier.

So, while improving the transportation of Ammo into combat is certainly great, there are a few other small "idiot proofing" measures I decided to take as well.

First, and simplest, the chain that keeps the legs from getting kicked out from under the mortar has received an upgraded, beefier hook, since we broke the hook at our last Mortar Game:



Second, and a bit less obvious than a giant hook, would be the addition of a safety wire and lead tamper disk to the clamp arms:





The 0.20" safety wire, properly twisted prevents the clamp arms from exceeding that magic ~85 Degrees needed to separate the clamp from the barrel, causing all the important innards (tension tube, spring guide, spring) from falling out and disappearing in the dirt.  The safety wire allows normal opening and closing of the clamp legs, needed to secure the mortar barrel to the mortar base, yet prevent the legs from extending all the way (or if one does, the other won't), and the wire won't get in the way of it's normal operation, plugging in to the mortar base, or the storage slot on the mortar barrel pack frame.

Putting my own life and limb on the line, here I am holding the mortar barrel (20+ pounds) by the clamp collar, arms extended, praying the safety wire doesn't give, keeping my toes as far away from the barrel as possible.  The wire does it's job!  With the clamp arms open further than that, the clamp would simply fall off (or in this case, the barrel would fall out of the clamp).



And, with the clamp arms folded (such as when the barrel is inserted into the base, or when the barrel is stored on it's pack frame) the wire simply folds out of the way, so it won't snag on the mortar base or pack frame.





I have also tested and confirmed, you do not need to open the clamp arms to insert the base of the barrel into the pack frame for transportation, however you may have to loosen the arms to lift the barrel out.  I guess it depends on the ambient temperature.  Sometimes it sticks, and loosening the clamp helps.  Otherwise, once the leather strap and cotter pin is undone, the barrel should freely come out of the pack frame.  The clamps will need to be undone to properly seat in the mortar base plate, as always.

But yeah, I used the thinnest wire I had on hand, so if we break it, I'll simply replace it with something thicker.  I figured thin would prevent any hangups in deploying the mortar, and not interfere with it's normal operation.  Part of the point of this game is to give the Mortar a solid day of heavy use, so if we break something, I can get it fixed before the next East Wind.
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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2013, 08:18:36 am »

Looks good.  Twisted wire is the Military's favorite way to "secure" things on weapons.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 08:58:37 am »

It was a very good call by Swayze.  It wasn't a problem up until now, and with the few minutes work it took to secure the wire, it won't become a problem in the future.

Thinking of setting it up on a free weekend at the field and putting together a proper firing table, so we can use the mortar like a proper military would, and not like a band of rebels who happen to have a mortar.

Here's a real deal firing table for the 2B14.  It doesn't specify the type of round going down range:
   
Quote
•   82mm Mortar Firing Table

RANGE 0000m | ELEV 1499mils | 1mil = 00m | TOF 0 sec
RANGE 0100m | ELEV 1484mils | 1mil = -6.4m | TOF 31.76 sec
RANGE 0200m | ELEV 1468mils | 1mil = -6.3m | TOF 31.57 sec
RANGE 0300m | ELEV 1453mils | 1mil = -6.3m | TOF 31.64 sec
RANGE 0400m | ELEV 1437mils | 1mil = -6.3m | TOF 31.73 sec
RANGE 0500m | ELEV 1421mils | 1mil = -6.3m | TOF 31.66 sec
RANGE 0600m | ELEV 1405mils | 1mil = -6.3m | TOF 31.55 sec
RANGE 0700m | ELEV 1389mils | 1mil = -6.2m | TOF 31.52 sec
RANGE 0800m | ELEV 1373mils | 1mil = -6.2m | TOF 31.69 sec
RANGE 0900m | ELEV 1357mils | 1mil = -6.1m | TOF 31.5 sec
RANGE 1000m | ELEV 1341mils | 1mil = -6.1m | TOF 31.46 sec
RANGE 1100m | ELEV 1325mils | 1mil = -6.0m | TOF 31.46 sec
RANGE 1200m | ELEV 1308mils | 1mil = -6.0m | TOF 31.35 sec
RANGE 1300m | ELEV 1291mils | 1mil = -5.9m | TOF 31.17 sec
RANGE 1400m | ELEV 1274mils | 1mil = -5.8m | TOF 31.23 sec
RANGE 1500m | ELEV 1257mils | 1mil = -5.8m | TOF 31.12 sec
RANGE 1600m | ELEV 1240mils | 1mil = -5.7m | TOF 31 sec
RANGE 1700m | ELEV 1222mils | 1mil = -5.6m | TOF 30.9 sec
RANGE 1800m | ELEV 1204mils | 1mil = -5.4m | TOF 30.84 sec
RANGE 1900m | ELEV 1185mils | 1mil = -5.3m | TOF 30.73 sec
RANGE 2000m | ELEV 1166mils | 1mil = -5.2m | TOF 30.55 sec
RANGE 2100m | ELEV 1147mils | 1mil = -5.1m | TOF 30.42 sec
RANGE 2200m | ELEV 1127mils | 1mil = -4.9m | TOF 30.18 sec
RANGE 2300m | ELEV 1106mils | 1mil = -4.8m | TOF 29.97 sec
RANGE 2400m | ELEV 1085mils | 1mil = -4.6m | TOF 29.79 sec
RANGE 2500m | ELEV 1063mils | 1mil = -4.5m | TOF 29.51 sec
RANGE 2600m | ELEV 1040mils | 1mil = -4.2m | TOF 29.26 sec
RANGE 2700m | ELEV 1015mils | 1mil = -3.9m | TOF 29.07 sec
RANGE 2800m | ELEV 0989mils | 1mil = -3.7m | TOF 28.7 sec
RANGE 2900m | ELEV 0961mils | 1mil = -3.4m | TOF 28.32 sec
RANGE 3000m | ELEV 0930mils | 1mil = -3.0m | TOF 27.92 sec
RANGE 3100m | ELEV 0895mils | 1mil = -2.7m | TOF 27.32 sec
RANGE 3200m | ELEV 0853mils | 1mil = -2.2m | TOF 26.69 sec
RANGE 3300m | ELEV 0798mils | 1mil = -1.4m | TOF 25.75 sec

Russian mortar systems use a compass that includes 6000 mils.

Could be a fun little project.  Of course, we won't get out to 3300 meters, but I'm sure using "group of 5" averages, I could figure out it's max range in 5 meter increments using my stock of brand new footballs and 30 M922a1 Madbull Grenades (for consistency's sake).  Then a smart mortar team can set up, estimate range to target, consult the chart, adjust for anticipated winds, and can start doing cool stuff, like being zeroed in on a high traffic road, ready to drop rounds on target, with an increased chance of actually scoring a hit.

Since Swayze was so amazing to build a working T&E into the Mortar, the "ELEV" portion of the chart would simply be the readout on the elevation mechanism (I wonder if it can be zeroed so dialed all the way down is true zero, instead of wherever it's at now, 850 something).  So If a team figures they're going to bang a roadway 100m away (about 7/8ths max range for this mortar), they can see the work done on the chart and crank the elevation mechanism right to the number.  Of course, wind, temperature, elevation and all that jaz will impact accuracy, but it should be good enough to ballpark the round where needed.

Figuring out mills for windage is a whole other story, considering the wind will severely impact the football.  I could play with the numbers through more 5 round groups and literally figure out how to shift your fire effectively, in say, 5 meter groups, and through eyeballing it one simply goes half or 1/4 of what they need to get back on target.  The whole setup is small enough that one could simply pick up and move the feet for significant elevation adjustments.

The last column, time of flight, just excites me in a nerdy way.  One can see a Mutt coming down a trail, estimate it's speed, compare to distance and time of flight, and know exactly when to fire the mortar to score a direct hit!

Since I plan on using the same shells, and brand new footballs for the testing, I only have to worry about 1 type of projectile, and should be getting consistent numbers to populate an entire chart out to it's max range in 5m increments.  This should help eliminate variables on the mortar's end, leading the mortar team to have to figure out distance and wind.  Distance is easy enough if someone has a PSO-1/POSP scope with range finder, and a willing volunteer approximately 1.7m tall, willing to stand in the target zone, or if not possible, the enemy can stand there for you!

All of this on a single 8.5x11 sheet of paper, laminated inside the lid of the Ammo Carrier, who would typically be the guy doing the loading and firing anyway, and convenient enough to locate by other members of the mortar crew.

Nerdgasm.  I shall have to clear a weekend in July to do this... then test it again around November when it's significantly cooler out.
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 09:13:42 am »

To zero the scale all you need to do is loosen the set screw on the collar then rotate the collar independent of the crank to achieve zero then retighten the set screw. 

Good ideas Coop. 

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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 01:21:55 pm »

2 sheets of 12"x24" galvanized sheet steel acquired.  Tin Snips, acquired.  Carbide Tungsten Scriber, acquired.  Self tapping metal/wood screws, 1/2" acquired.

Time to build me an elaborate 3 sided box.  Pics to come as progress is made.  Bought 2 sheets of metal in case I fuck up.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 05:20:17 pm »

As promised, coming together really nicely!

Before: The propane can just kinda hangs out on the 40mm grenades, and the footballs are supported by a shitty piece of cardboard wedged in place.



No lie, like 10 minutes of measuring and bending, and then bending again because my measurements were slightly off, I have, the worlds most durable shoebox.



Mocked up.  The footballs fit better.  The propane can still fits.  The footballs are still easily retrievable.  Let's make it permanent!



Quick trip to the playground (Where a slide and swings used to be, before the previous owners took them when they moved out) for 2 coats of OD Rustoleum, because that's what I have on hand, and that's what I did the box in.



Paint dry after 2 hours, mocked up.  Looking good.  Not the most perfect 90 degree corners, and it's about a half an inch short, but without a proper vice, not bad for hand bending/hammering.



Zip 4 screws on each side as best as possible (again, it's about a quarter inch short, but my first build was a half inch too long... I'd rather it fit, lol), and the footballs fit well, the propane can fits very well.  The thin metal works much better than the thick cardboard, and won't actually go anywhere.



This propane adapter is not the model with the removable tip (I have another one that does) so that one may become the mortar ammo box's propane adapter.  I believe my largest drill bit is the same size as the propane adapter's tip.  I'm going to cut a block of wood, drill it to fit the propane adapter, secure it to the side in that open space, and one can simply drop the propane adapter in here, and the lid of the ammo box will hold it in place.

Am wondering, Swayze, have you ever run the mortar with baby powdered footballs?  Thinking of throwing a travel bottle in the available space.  I've never tried it, I know on some setups a powdered football works much better than not.

I think the last thing to do to the shelf is put some kind of rubber coating on the edge.  It's pretty sharp!
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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2013, 07:36:54 am »

Never did powdered footballs, I just polished the bore instead. 

Powder may have some plusses but none of them seemed worth the minuses of potential fouling issues once the stuff accumulates and gets wet. 

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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2013, 12:26:28 pm »

Never did powdered footballs, I just polished the bore instead. 

Powder may have some plusses but none of them seemed worth the minuses of potential fouling issues once the stuff accumulates and gets wet. 


What about something like this:
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/VersaChem-21-oz-5-88-g-Dry-Powder-extra-fine-graphite-lube/_/N-25apZ1z13c3d?itemIdentifier=524462_0_0_
?
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2013, 01:33:09 pm »

Ran it all weekend, ran beautifully!  The ammo box got some much needed scratching!

Nobody lost any parts, though we had a good 10 minute scare trying to locate the cotter pin once!  May see about dummy cording it to the barrel!

Future improvements:

Replace the 16 Madbull M922a1 shells with something that has just as good gas capacity, and a better auto reset. - The big failure point in the system now is the shells.  When well cared for, they work great, and the whole point of our mortar weekend is to really stress test the system.  I know I lost about 8 bearings in at least 6 grenades (1 or 2 here or there).  I have a 100 pack of spares, so that's no problem, and I plan for it, but I'd like something like the d-boys VOG shells that self reset very reliably (But certainly needs to hold more gas than the VOGs).  Although putting that reset cotter pin in there was a god send this weekend!  May look into tougher springs.  From my understanding, all "self resetting shells" means is just a tougher spring.  The spring pushes the valve closed and no need to fuck with a reset pin between re-gasses.

Clean and paint the mortar system.  - She has definitely earned it.  Will have to dig through past threads and PM's to get the correct paint color up, but I know she's due for a good wire brush scraping and paint job.

Replace the giant black T&E knobs with aluminum crank handles. - Looking at the picture of the real 2b14, the T&E adjustments are cranks like these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#control-handles/=n8i11x (Scroll down to Aluminum Crank Handles).  It makes it look more realistic, it lowers the profile, adds a bit of durability, and will stop the elevation portion from jabbing whomever is carrying that particular pack frame in the back.

Reset the T&E to zero/zero. - Simple enough, just need to do it.  I'd like to measure the traverse mechanism from end to end, figure out the precise middle, dial that to zero, so positive increase in numbers would mean firing more to the right, while negative would be firing more to the left.  Drop elevation to zero so any positive gain in elevation is up from the default resting angle.  I then want to take a note of the max possible elevation before the arm that holds the barrel falls off of the legs.  We did this once.  Having a number known would prevent us from exceeding it.

Work on a folding grab handle for the extraction handle.  The new one is a significant improvement, and does not appear to be falling out after a weekend of heavy use, but is still very small for normal sized hands to grab on to.  I am envisioning something like number 10 under slide on round grips: http://www.mcmaster.com/#hand-grips/=n8i0se but, with some kind of spring that allows the handle to fold forward when not in use.

Paint lines on the hose clamp/barrel interface to show proper orientation. - Learned this weekend that if someone isn't paying attention, the hose clamp will physically rotate, preventing the barrel from being installed back into the pack frame, and the clamp arms will not fold over at all, or only one will.  If I orient this part properly, and put a reference line in place, operators can keep an eye out for it and ensure it's lined up when returning it to storage.

Consider dummy cording the cotter pin to the barrel. - Maybe.  I take joy in watching people get nervous when the cotter pin is off of the barrel pack frame, but not quite yet holding the barrel to the legs yet.

Find rubber edge guard for the metal box inside the ammo pack frame. - Nobody got bit yet, but the fucker is sharp!

Consider filing down the edges of the Mortar Breech. - Still managed to get some shells stuck inside the mortar if inserted at a funny angle.  One can only teach the same kids several times in a row to put the entire 40mm inside the breech at once, instead of nose first, which will always jam depending on the model of shell you are using.

Polish the inside of the barrel. - I'm thinking a giant copper wire brush hooked up to a low speed drill.  Followed by a giant cotton/fabric swab and a thorough cleaning to remove any crap scraped out by the copper wire.  Also stuff the barrel full of newspaper when I go to paint it, just to prevent any overspray into the barrel.

EDIT: Tighten down the safety wires.  They worked well, but need to be tightened even more so it doesn't actually slip off the bottom post.  Mk1 worked great, but can be improved by tightening the slack fully even more.

More to come!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 01:43:02 pm by Coop » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 06:00:23 pm »

Updated operations manual and uploaded it to the site.

Still tweaking it, so things may look funny or break.  I'm also probably going to lay out the re-packing instructions, only because I feel like "do the above in reverse" is cheating and doesn't meet my typical level of thoroughness.

http://www.operationeastwind.com/EB/training/mortar/2b14mortarmanual.html

Also added to the prototype new training page, under the new category of "Weapons" under Tier 4 - Advanced Reading.
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« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 08:06:17 pm »

A friend and fellow player provided me his raw helmet cam footage from the mortar game.  Watch strangers come together and beat the shit out of Swayze's baby, lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DznbEHfpm-k

Be warned, feature length, an hour and 49 minutes, lol.  And ya'll get to see some of my field too.  Not a huge place, but a great way to kill a day with friends.
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